Disinfo Readers on Health Care Around the World

Posted by disinfogreg on March 4, 2010

Just to help put things in perspective, via Wikipedia:

Public universal health care around the world (as of December 2009).

BLUE = Single-payer universal health care (16)
GREEN = Public universal health care through other means (51)
GRAY = No universal health care or no data

Posted in: Corporation Watch, Government, Health Care, Politics, Universal Healthcare

ebwolf

And that $700 billion doesn't include the tab for Iraq or Afghanistan. Those bills are on the Federal credit card drawing interest.
How much longer before the defense budget is deemed classified “in the interest of national security?”
ebwolf

1. I doubt anyone on this site would say that they trust the government. But that doesn't necessarily translate to trusting privatized power structures either. Besides, the private health insurance companies have made it quite clear that they don't give a rat's ass what is best for us.
2. The Government vs. Private Sector argument might be more persuasive if it wasn't so obvious that it's the same people switching hats every few years (or months.)
3. I also like this site for it's critical thinking as well but, with a topic that carries this level of emotional intensity, people are bound to get fired up and type from the hip (myself included.)
http://twitter.com/sc13ntist sc13ntist

exp0sed – I would like to first say thank you for your posting. I can see by reading all of these comments that people feel very strongly about this particular matter and it pleases me greatly to know that people are still compassionate about what they believe in; I find it is very hard to find. Secondly I would like to clarify my earlier post. When I said that my father and I spoke of politics, I meant that we discuss our views on all sorts of politically charged topics. And we do not agree on many of them. He does his own research and studying on things that interest him and I do the same. I have studied politics, religion, philosophy, I received my BS in Psychology and English. I have also traveled to many places around the globe and strive to talk to people from everywhere and learn new things everyday. You say that my arguments are not based on factual data. Ok. I have opinions and observations and things that I have read and studied and believe to be facts. If they are wrong then I need to do more studying to find the truth. But facts aside I just disagree. I feel the way I feel based on what I know and I am sure that these opinions and feelings of mine will grow and change as I grow older and continue to learn. I have posted the thoughts I have now in my comments. I understand that you do not agree with me and I appreciate your breakdown of explaining things from your perspective and I hope I can do the same from mine. I do not agree that my mind has been infiltrated by propaganda; I think we just have opposing views on this particular subject. I do not have the answer to the health care problem. And I understand your irritation that I am not bringing something to table to take the place of what I am disagreeing with. However, I am still learning, I wrote my comments to get reactions and other perspectives and start a healthy debate because only with discussion and the exchange of ideas from different views will we find the answer to this (and many other) problem(s). I do agree there is a problem with healthcare companies and I think that something needs to change. Perhaps you are right and giving the government control over healthcare (since we trust them with national security, medicare and social security) is the right thing to do to get the ball rolling to find the right way to do things. I am just not sure yet. If I had to give an answer right this second I would say no. But I could very well be wrong and I realize that. I am only offering up my opinion based on what I know, or think I know, and from my own experiences; the same as you. In regards to my use of term socialism, I don't think cliché is the right word. I use this word to extend my point that a larger more controlling and more involved government is a step towards socialism. Yes, we have socialist programs that work quite well, but the more socialist programs we add and the more steps we take in that direction scare me because I do not want to see my government fail trying to achieve socialism. I hope that that clarifies how I meant the term to be understood in conjunction with my comment. As I move through your comment I do understand your view of American Corporations and providing jobs because it benefits the corporation. However, it does provide jobs. And I think you are generalizing when you say any CEO would tell you they are only about the bottom line. Per example Meg Whitman is running for California state governor and she was the CEO and founder of Ebay. She in fact created hundreds of thousands of jobs. I believe more people need to have that kind of mindset of benefiting themselves AND others. I am not religious. But I do believe in religious morals and values to some extent. And I think everyone has the responsibility to be a “good citizen” by paying taxes, contributing to their community, helping those in need, etc. But should the government have control over all of those things? Or should the individual have individual responsibility to do their part? In my opinion it should be on the individual. I should be able to contribute money to the programs that I think are working, or the ones that need more money to work better. Think what it would be like if we had to pay a certain amount in taxes but each individual got to decide where it went? My friend in college moved to Brazil and started a non-profit organization to help a small village. She took thousands of dollars of her own money and bought a huge house to teach the local children English, and taught the local people more about farming and how to properly irrigate their fields to allow them to grow more product to trade with other villages and have enough to supply themselves. I would love to contribute my taxes to programs like that in other countries, and more importantly in the United States. I think we could fix so many things if more people cared about helping people to be self reliant and self responsible. Instead we have built a cozy program with welfare and disability that people misuse it and the money is wasted instead of actually helping people. I realize that I have jumped around and touched on many different subjects. My point is that some kind of “nationalized” healthcare system may be the answer if I could trust my government to do the right thing. I have a fear that where our government is now and the people in it are not actually concerned for our well being and although the idea of a nationalized system looks shiny on paper – would it work in application? I would like to also clarify one of my other earlier statements. I said that health care is not a right in America and was responded to saying that my misrepresentation of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” was incorrect because from their perspective Life = healthcare. I suppose I just see it differently than others; I see it as quest for what you want in this life. I read that and interpret it to mean that I am born as an American and entitled to work for what is important to me, the things that I think will make me happy. Now I am sure you will call me crazy, and that is fine, but that is my view on what those words mean. You are right in your last comment, I am young and from a generation that sees the world in a different way. I hope to grow and learn and bring something beneficial to the table when I get to a point in my life where I have the experience to really change things and make things better. To sound even crazier; I don't think people under the age of 30 should vote, I know I don't have all the answers and I don't trust myself or the rest of my generation to know what we are talking about because we don't. We haven't had the life experience to bring anything to the table but thoughts and opinions. You can say that I am being a hypocrite for spouting my thoughts and then saying something like that, but in my head it makes sense. I want everyone to think more about things in general. I want everyone to be involved in some way. I want more people to “care” about this country. So many people don't give a shit about politics, they just float along. I want to stir shit up. I want to make people angry. I want them to think, I want them to live, not blindly go through life agreeing with what they are told to agree with. I hope that my ramblings have answered your questions. I hope that these ramblings of a 22 year old graduate student who started college at 15 and does things differently than many people will make you think as your comments have made me think. That is what I strive for, to make people feel uncomfortable and really analyze and think about how the feel and why. So thank you for doing the same to me. I wish you well and I look forward to reading more comments from you and seeing the world through your eyes.
SmarterThanThatGuy

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miles

…and the funniest thing: the only country that actually has FREE healthcare… is big bad cuba!
yesweCANada

First off id like to state that I am a Canadian and due to my medical conditions I effectively have to live within my country's medical system. About 5 years ago i was diagnosed with a debilitating chronic pain condition that i have no hope of curing(with ANY medical system in the world). My day to day life depends on the many expensive drugs i must take just to live a some what normal life.
Because I am employed and make over a certain amount I pay into Alberta Health Care(if i didn't i would not have to pay anything) and i also have health insurance what up here is called Blue Cross. My health insurance helps pay for the part of my drugs that my provincial health care does not, my provincial health care covers all of my doctors visits, appointments with specialists,and any test or procedures I must undergo. My health care bill is about $150 every three months and my health insurance is about $60 a month, the remaining that i must pay out of pocket is about $35 a month for drugs. Its safe to say that i spend about $1740 a year in health care (i do pretty good for my self so i pay a little more then some people). I did some research on what kind of situation i would be in if I lived in the U.S. and it literally scared the hell out of me. Lets break it down….1st I could not get health insurance, none, no kind at all. I would be rejected dude to it being classified as a pre existing condition. My yearly Doctor/Specialist fees due to me not having insurance is astronomical, were talking tens of thousands of dollars every year with tests and procedures. 2nd is my drugs, my monthly drug bill because I could not get cover would be around $1200 a month. That's the basics, those are the drugs that make me able to get out of bed in the morning and suppress a pain that i could only describe as every major joint in my body trying to disconnect from each other. I could not go on without this medication. If i live in the U.S. me and my family would be officially ruined with my medical bills. My parents would never be able to retire after both of them working there entire lives, i would never have the freedom to chose my path in life, and i would never have the care and attention of some of the best Doctors in the world (regardless of what your Glen Becks and Bill O'Reillys say we have some damn smart people up here). This more then my health is what I could not deal with. I would not have the opportunity to go to school, get a degree and start a successful business (and pay back into my health care system!) with out the help from my government and our health care system… with that saying our health care system is built upon the people of this country so in fact i could not do it without the help from my fellow Canadians.
It saddens me to think that this is the reality for MILLIONS of Americans. I will say that our system is not perfect and at times I have felt intense frustration with it. But the fact remains that I am a happy, productive and.. well as healthy as I can ever hope to be. I think it is a shame that your country has no problem spending over $711 000 000 000 so far for a war that has done nothing for your security, has only added to the animosity the middle east has for your country and in turn made the entire world a less safe place. But to add a little over sight and regulation into a corrupt system, a fraction of the money you spent on your 'wars' and to 'proop up your banks'(the largest robbery in the history of the world that even your children's children will not be able to overcome, well unless we all stop using money by then) to help your sick, poor and dyeing is not only unethical, but for such a God fearing nation the definition of betraying the God you so ignorantly hide behind. If you made it to the end of this comment I thank you for hearing out someone who lives your biggest fears(if taking care of your own with “socialist medicine” is a fear of yours) and is happy and well taken care of for it.
vyvian

yeah, we lived there too, I think it's a lot more convenient ESPECIALLY with prescriptions if you can't afford them
Fireman

I get most of the information about Britain's healthcare problems from either the BBC or The Gaurdian. They are liberal leaning and still report the problems. You just want to call BS but have nothing else to say. What about the two different hospital systems in Britain? Is that fair? How about the guy who just died of dehydration in Britain after calling the police who weren't allow to see the guy because of the hospital staff. Yes, he died under government healthcare. Is that fair? I've yet to hear about anything like that here. So all of you that replied to my post want to go from the best healthcare in the world (with a few problems) and turn into a system where your family has to change your sheets because the nurses let you lie in your own filth and you die of dehydration. Great.
I work in a city of 1.5 million. I have never seen a patient turned away for lack of insurance. We just took a patient to the hospital on a Stroke Alert. She was immediately seen by doctors, nurses, and specialists. Nobody asked for her insurance and nobody cared. She was given the best treatement possible.
If you are in a bad predicament (D Man) then you are the kind of people we should help. It is the people who don't want to take the responsibility to help themselves. They pay for an XBox 360 AND a PS3 and $60 games instead of paying $50 for a doctors visit. They pay $500 a month for a new car instead of $200 a month for a car and $300 for health insurance. As a firefighter I have seen this kind of crap.
Overhauling our healthcare to a socialistic nightmare will do nothing but reduce the standard of care we all get. You mock me for listening to Beck or Limbaugh but likewise you are obviously an CNN, MSNBC Olbermann watcher. You just try to call out others but with no facts. You don't want to the the truth because you are on the wrong side of it.
In our department we have several guys from Canada. They all love our healthcare. They had a chance to move back and didn't. It is obvious that you don't actually know anybody that had to live under it and then moved here to see how ours is.
If you do work in the hospital system then you don't actually see how your poor people spend their money. Go look. Get better educated on this. You too might decide that something else needs to be done first.
And most importantly, move to Canada if you think their healthcare system is sooooo great. Me, I'll stay here.
Fireman

I have a degree in computer programming and I am a firefighter. Open your eyes to something new and you won't regret it. I am much happier than I was as a programmer…even though my paycheck is much smaller.
I hope your luck changes. As I said above, you are the type of people we should be helping. When you get back on your feet I'm sure you will be a productive member of society so out government should help you get there.
Good luck.
Rodg

You should really take the time to read the “Patriot” Act. That's what makes an American, a … http://www.aclu-houston.org/rice/patriotAct.html
ebwolf

Thank you for informing the Land of the Free about the horrors of socialized medicine. We need more people like yourself to challenge the corporate propaganda saturating U.S. media.
otherwise….
“A lie told often enough becomes the truth.” -Vladimir Lenin
Zynaps

“…healthcare is not a right.” Okay, so when all those people without any get infectious diseases which they spread to you or your family perhaps you might realise that health policies have to be applied to everyone, else the sick will infect the healthy. Money won't protect you from TB or HIV or a hundred other easily spread illnesses.
“Stop relying on the government and rely on yourself. That's what makes an American.” Is it really? So all the military contractors deserve the free money off the government? What about the banks? What about the private companies who benefit from 'pork barrel' spending? What you actually mean is “Shut up poor people, keep working for your corporate masters like good sheep and don't ask for anything off us”
Ged

The ironic thing about all the “Waaa, socialism!” comments is that if you look at the history of the US over the past half century or so many of the innovations have come from either the military or other government-related spending bodies. Computer geeks are notorious for ranting about how free-market is perfect, but in their industry alone we had… US military buying up most of the transistors in the 50s, US military buying up most of the computers in the 60s, the Arpanet and related research, GPS and so on. In fact I'd love somebody to research how many computers are sold each year to taxpayer-funded institutions (local councils, the navy, schools and the like). Of course a similar story can be seen with many other technologies – nuclear power, radar, cryptography, satellites… What tends to happen in the US is the government pours money into an industry and after a decade or two said industry can then commercialise the technology. At which point the CEO comes out and tells you how awesome the free market is. Of course its not just technology, policies like the various versions of the GI bill produced an appreciable Keynsian stimulus to the economy during and after wartime. Remember in WW2 a large percentage of the young men were off fighting and entitled to bill money; this was one of the main reasons the average worker could become educated enough to earn a middle-class living by the 1950s (ask grandpops if he had to pay $100k tuition..).

I think the difference now is that you have politicians who control the government telling you the government doesn't work, so people then can blame all of their problems on the mythical evil socialism rather than on the useless politicians who have whored themselves out to big business interests.

Finally the US will simply have to switch to some form of national healthcare soon or else the whole system will rapidly collapse. Think about it – insurance is levied on the degree of risk. Currently young people (low risk) pay low premiums, older people higher. As the populace ages insurance companies can either whack the premiums of all those 50 yr old parents ever more higher or do likewise to the young; and the minute 21yr olds get hit with $1000 a month insurance bills they'll simply go elsewhere or not buy it. Furthermore the world of genetic testing shows that nearly everybody has multiple genetic flaws – you may exercise and eat your greens but your DNA hides a multitude of errors. So once testing becomes cheaper and health insurers force everyone to have it these hidden risks will be revealed and costs will further skyrocket.

Whereas with a state system the risk can at least be spread around, and the people can lobby their politicians to make sure gene tests are only ever voluntary. Would it be perfect? No. But it would work, and people would be healthier.
Mr Baltar

Ged – you said this: “What tends to happen in the US is the government pours money into an industry and after a decade or two said industry can then commercialise the technology. “

Isn't that exactly what's currently happening with spaceflight? Uncle Sam's taxpayers spent hundreds of billions on Nasa and now private companies will be given commercial contracts they can do efficiently because all the hard work has already been done?

While I'm here, a puzzle for my fellow Americans – the argument about US healthcare is that in a private system people are forced to take care of their own health so they can pay smaller premiums. But walking around you can see epic numbers of fat and generally unhealthy-looking people. I suppose someone will say these are all poor, but this isn't the case – plenty of my own associates are fat, have substance abuse problems, pop antidepressant pills and so on.

Meanwhile in other countries the populations seem on balance to be thinner and healthier. You can certainly buy cheap crap in European supermarkets, but there's many less fatties there. England has a bit of a problem with obesity at the moment but that tends to be exaggerated quite badly by their right-wing press, who (just like here) pretend the only fat people are those on welfare. In fact the term 'fat chav' is used to describe them when its patently obvious plenty of the fatties have good jobs and should know better. It seems like fat has become a class issue here and over there – the tabloids will be filled with tales of a particular celeb's valiant weight loss or surgery then other stories bitch about poor people eating fries. Similarly celebrities go to rehab and 'triumph' over their drug problems but poor people with drug problems are worthless bums.

Funny we think this way in a Christian nation.
melvinpolatnick

The chance of providing quality health care to the poor is now at hand. Nationalized health care will make sure that no person is left behind. We must thank the rich for getting it passed. They will have the power and compassion to raise the payroll tax, and pay medical costs for every sick person. It might anger some of the overpaid, but they have been living high on the hog for too long.
Fireman

You are absolutely correct. Danny Williams is not the Prime Minister of Canada. My mistake. But it is funny how you don't mention that he is, in fact, under Canadian health care. It is also funny that you say he could not get the procedure done in Canada because he could. But he CHOSE the US health care system. Because I too made a mistake I will believe that you simply made a mistake in mistating that fact. Here is an article: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/canada/10030...
I also like how Mr. Williams states that many Canadians CHOOSE to come to the US for treatment. Oh, what are they going to do when they can't come down here for health care. I guess they will die because they can't get an MRI for six months or they can't get scheduled for surgery for another six months after finding out they have brain cancer that would have been operable if only it didn't take six months for an MRI. If you need an MRI here, you can get it today. You can't say that.
Plus, if we didn't have system where doctors could get rich inventing specific techniques, then they would not be invented OR they would not be invented until many years later. It is called Capitalism and it works when the government keeps it nose out of it.
Fireman

Ha! D Man. Read above and you will see that Canadian didn't tell the entire story. So your Ha! is a little premature.
Fireman

yesweCANada, you partially prove what we who don't want socialized healthcare are saying. Not only are my taxes going to skyrocket because of the “free” healthcare, but I will also have to pay health insurance. Wow, that is great. So, I can pay health insurance, or I can pay increased taxes and still pay for health insurance. Makes a lot of sense.
Your statement is a bit flawed. If you had insurance when you found out about your condition, it is not pre-existing and it would be covered. When you switch companies, there are laws that state the new company's insurance would have to take you. So you would in fact be covered. Take it from someone who recently found out he has a disease that can be delibitating. I have multiple schlerosis. I am covered. My medication is covered (over $1500 per month). They can't kick me off.

And there is something that many of you people miss (you people being those that pay for your insurance and are productive members of society). The people in this country that don't have some form of health coverage don't have it because they either don't do what is necessary to get the already existing government option (medicaid) or they don't want it, or they would rather have the new car than pay for it.
This country is being ruined by allowing the people that want everything for nothing to continue to suck it dry. This is just another example. Why not make them do something for it. If you can't pay then go to the hospital and clean, or mow, or paint, or something. But that is not fair. What a crock!
allimo

Im sorry you feel this way sc13ntist. Healthcare is a right. It is a human right. Do yourself a favour and move to a country that has universal healthcare and experience it. Then comment. I lived in the US for 6 years and have since returned to my native country – Australia. The healthcare system in the US is atrocious. For the “leader of the free world” to be still in the dark ages confuses me. Here's an idea….drop military spending by 5% and there is the answer to fixing the American healthcare system. Remember the cold war is over and the fear of “reds under the bed” is a thing of the past.
The Memorial Storm

What this article does not address is that health-care in Canada is a provincial responsibility & that Mr. Williams is the premier of what is unofficially classified as a “have-not” province. This status means that they receive “transfer payments” from the rest of the provinces via the federal government in order to ensure some level of equality. Mr. Williams is a Conservative but has been the centre of controversy in the past in his vocal opposition to Prime Minister Stephen Harper, a fellow (albeit federal) Conservative, over issues that include, among others, the issue of equitable “transfer payments” to the province of Newfoundland & Labrador from the federal government. In this light, Mr. Williams' statements can be perceived as being just one of another long string of inflammatory statements that reflect the beefs he has with the way his federal Conservative counter-part Harper conducts government.

Besides, as the premier of a province, Mr. Williams has financial resources at his disposal that the average Canadian does not have. The Canadian health-care system is not perfect, so yes I might have to wait 6 months for open-heart surgery if I needed it. But if I had the resources that Mr. Williams has, I'd jump the queue in Newfoundland & jet to Florida too, why not? Essentially, his statements do not illustrate the admitted problems within the Canadian health-care system, but rather high-light the understanding that regardless of the health-care structure of a nation, wealthy people will get the services they need when they need it, while us average folks (not to mention the poor folks) have to eke it our for ourselves & our families in any way that we can.
Belcat

So what you’re saying is, it’s your problem, it doesn’t concern me. Good reply.
I guess you’re hoping to hell you don’t get a chronic problem, and your life insurance dumps you, because by your standards, you’re dead/screwed.
Belcat

So what you're saying is, it's your problem, it doesn't concern me. Good reply.
I guess you're hoping to hell you don't get a chronic problem, and your life insurance dumps you, because by your standards, you're dead/screwed.

Disinfo Readers on Health Care Around the World

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