Disinfo Readers on Health Care Around the World

personally, I am against any government involvement in the lives of people,
well I'm against any government really……but it may be a good thing if it finally crushes the federal government under its cost

Really?

You're against clean water?

Clear air?

Food safety regulations?

Child labor laws?

Worker safety laws?

I mean, do you want me to go on pointing out just how stupid a statement like that “no government” BS is?

Really, do you think corporations — which are basically oligarchies and dictatorships — are going to treat you better than a democracy? At least with a democracy you have a CHANCE to change things. With corporations you have ZERO voice, ZERO power.

That you would so willingly give up your freedom like that, is an insult to every man, woman, and child that has died to gain you all the luxuries you now enjoy so carelessly.

Sorry everyone, but, as an American, I would like to say that healthcare is not a right. We aren't born with the right to freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (and healthcare). That's just not how it works in America. You get a job, pay your bills, and either your evil corporation provides you with healthcare or you buy some for yourself. Even illegal immigrants with no healthcare can go to a hospital and get seen by a doctor and receive medicine because hospitals can't turn you away. So we basically have free healthcare
anyway. Medicare is a nationalized healthcare plan for old people that they PAY into their whole lives, thus they have EARNED it. I would be fine with expanding Medicare to cover children under the age of 18 who are unable to get healthcare on their own, or providing students with free healthcare because they are doing something productive. But to sit back and whine because the government is taking care of your every need is sickening. America does not do everything for everyone. And that is not what a govenment should be doing. It should be protecting your RIGHTS and FREEDOM and allowing you to grow and better yourself as a contributing tax paying individual. People need to stop whining about what the government isn't doing for them and look at what our government does do for us. We are the freeist country in the world. Why do you think everyone wants to live in America? If you don't like it; move somewhere else. But don't expect the United States to continue bending over and taking it up the ass to make everyones life easier. Do something for yourself for once. Stop relying on the government and rely on yourself. That's what makes an American.

Spoken like a true corporate worker bee. I'm glad to see that you've been swallowing everything your masters have been squirting down your throat. Oh, wait, I forgot. Governments the world over utilize propaganda, but the good 'ol US of A. OUR media/government/corporations tell us only the truth. Bullshit. Having worked for government health care systems for over 25-years, I can tell you that American hospitals DO turn away patients everyday. Regarding your comments about whether American citizens have earned health care; GIVE ME A BREAK. I'm sick and tired of that party line! We pay a heavy toll in taxes, and our infrastructure is crumbling around us. Virtually the only thing we produce anymore is cardboard boxes which we send–empty–to China to be filled with more crap that we don't need. Our educational system is becoming too expensive for the average middle class student, and our social security system is in mortal danger of collapse. Our health insurance is rapidly costing more than the average worker can pay. Premiums increased 114 percent between 1999 and 2007, while workers’ earnings increased only 27 percent.
If we spent just a TENTH less on being the world police, we could actually afford to take care of our own people here at home–both in retirement pensions as well as healthcare.
If you really want to rely on yourself, stop paying taxes. See how far that'll get you.
IT IS TIME FOR THE U.S. TO GET WITH THE REST OF THE CIVILIZED WORLD!

Regarding your comment about, “Do you honestly think that switching over to nationalized healthcare and giving the government the responsibility of 300 million lives?” Take a look at the map at the top of this page. What makes OUR government so crappy that we can't handle a nationalized healthcare system? It works amazingly well in virtually every other 1st-world country that I've visited or studied. There is NO reason to think that it won't work here. On the other hand, there is EVERY reason to believe that the insurance and health care corporations are going to take it in the shorts if we revamp our healthcare system. THEY are the ones who do want the status quo boat rocked one iota!
If we want to continue as the top superpower in the world, then we have to stop squandering money on wars we can't afford, and paying for “democratic” friends in shaky regimes around the world. We've got to stop expanding government like there's no tomorrow–in fact, we need to cut our government by AT LEAST 60%. There is easily that much dead wood in every government agency that I've worked in, from the Federal level on down. And we need to vote out every greedy, self-serving SOB that is in the corporate pocket and not doing the will of the people; and keep voting them out until we elect some that are willing to represent the people. You inferred that the left wants healthcare reform RIGHT NOW. Health care reform is nothing new–it has been a recurring issue for nearly 100 years in this country. It's just finally reaching the point where something MUST be done; and done NOW.
We ARE spread too thin, and that's why we need to pull back to the basics here in this country–employment, education, healthcare & infrastructure. If we don't I'm afraid that our grandkids will refer to the 20th Century as the “Century of American Dominance and Decline”.

Are you high? What part of “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…” is unclear to you?

I believe THAT is what makes an American.

United states Of America = Sad & Selfish

If you don't reform healthcare now, it will cripple the country. This measure is not just deficit neutral, according to the NON-partisan OMB, it actually REDUCES THE DEFICIT.

This will SAVE you money, not cost you more.

But if you leave this to the greedy corporations? Believe me, it'll cost you. It's already costing you. Health care prices last year went up between 33% and 57% all across the country, and the health denial industry has only promised more increases.

hope it works out for you

USA doesn't have a healthcare system, it has a sickness industry. Watch Michael Moore's movie “Sicko” – it lays out what that map means to the average American

Let me break it down for you chuckles!
You typed: ” Even illegal immigrants with no healthcare can go to a hospital and get seen by a doctor and receive medicine because hospitals can't turn you away. So we basically have free healthcare.
Um… no! it is not free, we tax payers AND those who pay for health insurance pay for that “free” healthcare. Hospitals charge more money to the average healthcare consumer because they have to offset the cost of those without health coverage to visit the ER. Which they do because they know they cannot be turned away. Just like libraries, where the books aren't really free, ER visits cost money and you and anyone else who has a job and or has health insurance has to pay for that.

Next: It is LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (I will just assume you are an idiot and that this is a typo and not a convienent rewriting of the phrase). One cannot have the right to LIFE without the right to HEALTH.

And if I am going to take for granted that this is indeed a government BY the People, FOR the People, and OF the People, I will take us over an HMO anyday!

It saddens me to watch on CNN over & over again how Americans are being treated. You are pawns in the game of politics. Your lives are worthless in their eyes. When a major medical crisis hits, the only ones benefiting are those who said I told you so. People like Rush Lim(bawl) willingly put the lives of those who are for any reason at all underprivileged, to get a point across. Which generally gets followed up on by Republicans being afraid of his influence. There was supposed to be some sort of cooperation after the last election in order to straighten out some of your more difficult situations. Is there any common sense left in the upper reaches of government?

Universal health care works very well for the common citizen. It works pretty well with insurance companies here in Canada. Not perfect but a hell of a lot better than the treatment you folks are enduring. I don't understand how those, like our sc13ntist comrade, can oppose something that will benefit so many. Here in Canada everyone gets the same treatment. If one has the funds, they can travel to other parts of the world or they can also afford top health insurance. But, this insurance does not entitle them to any better treatment than those of us who cannot afford as such. They will get their medical supplies cheaper & will be a bit more comfortable. I've been a diabetic for 30 years without insurance for the last 20. I would much rather be provided with the top quality health care services & have to sometimes wait for elected procedures than to put my family out on the streets due to the cost of treatment & insurance. There's countless residents of Canada who live with fixed & low incomes but they aren't losing their homes & belongings after some medical disaster, which is already taxing enough on families.

I'd like to see some effort put into resolving your continuing struggle with health & safety rather than the normal course of the opposition doing everything in it's power to bring those in power to their knees. How many decades has this been as issue? If you were to chip away at the issue, it may take 5, 10 or 15 years to end up with a more positive system but it will be better than the current method of attacking the challenge. In 15 years the insurance companies will be even richer, the benefits you currently are able to afford will exponentially recede as your payments become higher & there will still be Republicans & Democrats. Do you keep following this trend?

It is much worse than selfish, it is the disease of exclusivity. It is not just that greedy people want access to anything and everything possible well beyond what they can use, it is that these people want to actively deny access to the essentials of life for the rest of the population. It is not just that they want every bit of health care available to service their needs, they want to actively prevent others from gaining it, they want exclusivity so they can gloat, so that the poor will have to beg them for help. It is the sick delusion of human superiority via wealth, born of psychopathic selfish greed. The poor must die so that the rich can thrive in their self perceived superiority.

Because sc13ntist is likely a paid troll for some insurance or drug company.

Sc13ntist is a college student working to pay for his masters program. Sc13ntist is an educated individual with his own perspective and opinions which happen to be different than yours. I do not believe a national healthcare bill is right. Yes I do agree that things need to change. But this is not the way to do it. And please stop blaming the big bad greedy corporations that supply tens of millions of jobs in this country. In your perfect society we would what? All get paid the same? All have the same amount of food? All live in the same style of house? Have some upper form of 'government' dole everything out to us? Yeah. That sounds like heaven to me. That's where I would want to live. Not. Thankfully I am young and I will hopefully get to see America come back to what my parents told me it was when I was little. My father and I talk politics for hours shaking our heads at what is going on in this sad country. In very literal terms; it's all kinds of fucked up right now and I wish I had the answer to fix it all. Maybe someone soon will.

Do you not realize that we already spend billions of dollars a year on healthcare. It is the single biggest burden on our economy. Not because too many people are being taken care of. But, because not enough people are being taken care of. The problem is the entire healthcare system. it is a for-profit system. That means that even if you can afford insurance, your insurance company's number one goal is to make money ; not to keep you healthy. THat is why people lose their coverage when they get sick, or get told that there procedure is “experimental” and isnt covered. The insurance industry is the only one that is allowed an exemption form anti-trust laws. and they have been fixing prices ever since. Imagine if all the grocery stores could get together and decide that they would all charge 20 bucks for a gallon of milk. There would be no competition, and you would therefore have no option but to pay it. THat is what your insurance company has been doing for quite some time now. I agree that it isnt your government's job to take care of your every need. but it is there job to protect you from entities that you cannot possibly protect yourself from.

sc13ntist- you have serious conversations with your “father”. That explains a lot about your views. No research on the subject, no readings on philosophy or political science perspectives, or historical perspective, or even first hand research about other countries(its obvious you never been out of the country).
No your opinions are based on what other people tell you and your discussions with “father.”

sc13ntist, your problem is none of your arguments you present are based on any factual data. Everything your speaking regarding your opposition to healthcare is either a) obvious regurgation of purposely slanted propoganda b) blind patriotism about how “great america” is already c) narrow minded observations based off your own limited experience or d) invoking the scary “S” word (socialism) any time an argument is presented about making America a better place for ALL of its citizens.

Your next problem is you claim a national health bill is not right.. and that the country is screwed..but even you admit you have no idea on how to fix it. You hope “maybe someone will soon”. I guess it is easy to bash any idea that changes the status quo if you have no alternative to present that can equally be subjected to scrutiny. The reality is our country spends the most money on healthcare by far than any other country and we are not getting nearly the bang for our buck that other countries are. I would think a fundamental capitalist like you can think in those terms. On the moral side, lets say I was going to make a wager of $3,000 dollars that you would get an incurable disease or $5,000 that you would die in 5 years..but I can pick the doctors you see and what the doctors can or cannot treat you for.. and you died.. and I profited from it. I think most people would think I was an immoral asshole for betting against and having played a part in your pain, suffering,death. However, if a COMPANY does this.. it is just business! Doesn't it bother you that insurance companies are profiting SUBSTANTIALLY from peoples pain, suffering, and death. And they do this by cutting deals and limiting the physicians you can see, denying coverage, and cutting off people who get to expensive for them or had previous conditions. Now I have no problems with companies making a profit for providing a service to people.. that's American. But if you actually spend some time looking over insurance company stocks you will find that they are stockpiling cash while passing more expense to the consumers and often not providing the services they should be.

As far as your use of the socialism word, its so cliche. Not everything is black and white.. its not unregulated capitalism vs socialism… because both in there pure forms dont work.
However, Medicare is a socialist program, Social Security is a socialist program, our military(government run and by definition socialist) even our progressive income tax is a socialist policy. The same people who ranted against Social Security in FDR's days are making the same arguments now. Now, nobody would ever argue for getting rid of social security or medicare(just on how to run or fund it). The same thing will happen with healthcare over time.. people will forget how controversial it was..then can't live without it.. then bitch about how to fund and manage it.

It's obvious you are young but if all you are ever going to do is block reform progress and hope someone comes along to fix a problem without upsetting the apple cart. Then I seriously hope you dont attain any serious leadership post in any corporation or government job. You will just add to the problem of gridlock that is keeping this country from progressing. You are obviously entitled to your opinion even if it is ill-informed one.

I can't tell if you're a genius or a moron, but in any case, you're always entertaining. Keep up the good work.

Zing!

Accusations of socialism…How Original! Can't imagine why I'd think you were a paid commenter. Except for the fact that your arguments follow the paint-by-numbers talking points of United Health, AIG, Pfizer, etc.

Back in “the good ol' days” the majority of businesses that supplied those millions of jobs were far more localized than the multi-nationals of today. As a result, they actually viewed their employees as people rather than human resources(i.e. a number ). I'm old enough to remember when the local merchants actually new the names of most of their loyal customers, and treated them with respect and loyalty in return.
The rise of mega-companies have the same effect as an invasive species. They choke out the local inhabitants and spread until there is nothing else left. In the old days, they called it a monopoly.Those big employers you love so much only supply tens of millions of jobs because they haven't figured out how to outsource them somewhere cheaper, and thus spread their influence.
While I'm not fond of the healthcare bill as is, a national public OPTION is the most practical fit. When the current system was popularized, people often stayed with the same employer for most of, if not their entire, working lives. This is no longer the case. A public health care option would serve to provide competition for the insurance conglomerates that have a stranglehold on the industry.
What's so evil about competition? Is that not what the divine “free market” is supposed to be based upon?
If government programs are so horrible, private insurance should have no problem offering a better alternative to socialized medicine.

Hey Fireman I just wanted to point out as a Canadian the Prime Minister of my country did not go to the United States for Heart surgery. That was the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. He also went not because he could not get the surgery done here in Canada he went because of a specific technique that that doctor in Florida invented.

Thanks, Wolf. It's my own comment–actually more of an observation of our sad American condition. And what REALLY pisses me off, is that so many people here continue to buy in to the mainstream propaganda line. “We're Number One!!” “Things Might Be Shitty Here, But It's Still Better Than Anywhere Else!!” Etc. Etc. What a crock! I tend to run more toward what I saw on a bumper sticker a while ago, “I love my country-But fear my government!”

“Yeah. That sounds like heaven to me. That's where I would want to live. Not. Thankfully I am young and I will hopefully get to see America come back to what my parents told me it was when I was little. My father and I talk politics for hours shaking our heads at what is going on in this sad country. In very literal terms; it's all kinds of fucked up right now and I wish I had the answer to fix it all. Maybe someone soon will.”

Get back to the America (your parents see) it once was when you were little?
You are that young that you don't have any recollection before bush took office and lost the decade? If your working on your masters shouldn't you at least remember the first Bush. Under Bush I and Clinton America was doing great.
Let me guess your father thinks Ronald Reagan is comparable to Jesus and the good ol' days were when he and your mom were young and you were a baby.
Healthcare is a right, if you are sick and without it your life is more or less over. You've never been without so you wouldn't really know. Even the most conservative parties that fought against it in the countries in this map now those same parties wouldn't dare dismantle it since the people love it.
The governemnt already pays 51% of the health industries tab, most of that coming from seniors on medicare. If some of the senoirs on medicare had a chance to get preventive care in many instances then maybe medicare wouldn't cost as much. Even in the short run, Is it more cost effective to remove a pea sized tumor from a breast at age 58 or when its full blown breast cancer at age 65?

If you are 100% convinced that you are deciding to inheret your fathers political and social beliefs, then go for it. Personally I don't think we'll have a second coming of Reagan unless the RNC can find another actor to play president; America has it's ups and downs but there isn't “the way it used to be” or “the good ol days”, not that we can “go back to” that is. It's just your father's favorite time peroid in one of his lives, I don't think were going back to a Cold War balance of power for the world, or checking out those new $4000 256 color computer monitors.
Even if the example was Clinton the same still applies; there are no “good ol days” that we can return to…. even if the government were to try to implement the same policies of decades past. Time is always forward motion, why not pick up a macroeconomic class and a couple GP courses and create your own personal ideaology.

Billions of dollars that we don't have? We have more than enough money tied up in the defense budget to fix health care, social security, public education, and even take a bite out of world hunger (if you don't mind my pun).

The proposed legislation for health care is supposed to cost $9 billion over ten years (or something close). We now spend over $700 billion on defense annually – just over 4 percent of our GDP (2005 est). China, the next highest in defense spending, commits about $87 billion to it annually – less than 2 percent of it's GDP. In 2003, the US's defense spending was approximately $400 billion; China's was around $7 billion.

We spend the most on health care of any nation, and the most on defense/war. We have a private health care system and are the most warlike country. Both of these are billion dollar industries.

Having nationalized health care has NOTHING to do with being American or not, it's completely, solely, and only a business decision wrested from the hands of the people through increasing corporate interference in the nation's politics. At the myopic caveats of big government, we get something of the exact opposite.

Ha! See what I mean, Fireman! In the US the health care industry wants the media to report half the story; sadly, they comply.